First Time Bullfrog Owner - Need help with Frog Ease System

[Jmcgurren]

You MUST use MPS on a consistent basis. The water is then nothing but crystal clear perfection provided you are maintaining ph, alkalinity, and calcium. I am adding 1-2 tbsp about 2-3 times a week. We have 3 active young teenage boys, no showering before use. I NEVER use clarifier or defoamer. I rinse filters monthly. Works awesome. I have owned a hot tub since 2003 and this is hands down the easiest system.

Hey,
I am new to owning an A7 (1 year now) and it’s been a bumpy ride. Finally searching online for help and found this thread.
When you say use MPS and then maintain the proper alkalinity, PH, and calcium, are you saying you do not use chlorine?

I just bought some MPS - hoping to also rid of the spa shock oxidizer since it’s so harsh.
Thanks for any help in advance!

 

[Bperry]

When you say use MPS and then maintain the proper alkalinity, PH, and calcium, are you saying you do not use chlorine?

If they are saying that, I’d be very skeptical of anything else they tell you.

 

[Jmcgurren]

Hello,
I’m Jeff, from New Hampshire. We’ve owned an A7 for a year now and it’s been a bumpy ride trying to figure out why maintenance has been such a problem. Constantly having issues with mold, cloudy water, low CL, etc while using the frog ease cartridge system for BullFrog spas.
I have recently been shocking the tub weekly with spa shock oxidizer but I am noticing it’s pretty harsh on the skin. It seems to be the only thing that brings the water back to clear. That being said, my water having low CL while using the frog ease system is the problem to being with. I bought chlorine to manually add which I have been doing weekly (2-4 teaspoons) in addition to the frog ease cartridges.

The main issue I am noticing is these black flakes that come out of the jets. Even when the spa is clear it happens and I am assuming it is build up that is a result of the water issues I’ve had in the past.

I just bought MPS after I found another thread on here where a member stated the following and there is no mention of using chlorine:

You MUST use MPS on a consistent basis. The water is then nothing but crystal clear perfection provided you are maintaining ph, alkalinity, and calcium. I am adding 1-2 tbsp about 2-3 times a week. We have 3 active young teenage boys, no showering before use. I NEVER use clarifier or defoamer. I rinse filters monthly. Works awesome. I have owned a hot tub since 2003 and this is hands down the easiest system.

If I start using MPS, does that mean no chlorine use? Seems unlikely or maybe the user forgot to mention chlorine.

 

[Bperry]

Hello,
I’m Jeff, from New Hampshire. We’ve owned an A7 for a year now and it’s been a bumpy ride trying to figure out why maintenance has been such a problem. Constantly having issues with mold, cloudy water, low CL, etc while using the frog ease cartridge system for BullFrog spas.
I have recently been shocking the tub weekly with spa shock oxidizer but I am noticing it’s pretty harsh on the skin. It seems to be the only thing that brings the water back to clear. That being said, my water having low CL while using the frog ease system is the problem to being with. I bought chlorine to manually add which I have been doing weekly (2-4 teaspoons) in addition to the frog ease cartridges.

The main issue I am noticing is these black flakes that come out of the jets. Even when the spa is clear it happens and I am assuming it is build up that is a result of the water issues I’ve had in the past.

I just bought MPS after I found another thread on here where a member stated the following and there is no mention of using chlorine:

You MUST use MPS on a consistent basis. The water is then nothing but crystal clear perfection provided you are maintaining ph, alkalinity, and calcium. I am adding 1-2 tbsp about 2-3 times a week. We have 3 active young teenage boys, no showering before use. I NEVER use clarifier or defoamer. I rinse filters monthly. Works awesome. I have owned a hot tub since 2003 and this is hands down the easiest system.

If I start using MPS, does that mean no chlorine use? Seems unlikely or maybe the user forgot to mention chlorine.

I’m not a spa expert but someone else who is May chime in. Generally speaking spas need to have the water replaced several times a year so if you haven’t done that especially after using the frog thing, it may be the most economical thing to do in this case.

The experts will also advise to do a plumbing purge with a product called “awwsome” as the black flakes are probably mold inside your plumbing from being undersantized for so long. Pools and spas both need chlorine as a primary sanitizer. The MPS is only useful as a secondary addition when the spa might be indoors and not exposed to the sun.

 

[JoeSelf]

I've had my spa for a year and a half. I have never used MPS. You need to do an AHH!SOME purge. I know it's cold, next warm weather.

MPS is an oxidizer that takes care of bather waste, it is not a sanitizer. Chlorine is both. the chlorine you are adding, liquid or granular? Granular adds CYA which will raise the FC level to keep the SPA sanitized. FC/CYA Levels

Does you spa have ozone or UV? These help deal with bather waste (CCs). If you do, they will lower your FC (free chlorine), after they are done with the waste. So you have to dose accordingly.

Maybe @phonedave can help, he has a bullfrog.

 

[phonedave]

I've had my spa for a year and a half. I have never used MPS. You need to do an AHH!SOME purge. I know it's cold, next warm weather.

MPS is an oxidizer that takes care of bather waste, it is not a sanitizer. Chlorine is both. the chlorine you are adding, liquid or granular? Granular adds CYA which will raise the FC level to keep the SPA sanitized. FC/CYA Levels

Does you spa have ozone or UV? These help deal with bather waste (CCs). If you do, they will lower your FC (free chlorine), after they are done with the waste. So you have to dose accordingly.

Maybe @phonedave can help, he has a bullfrog.

I don't think a Bullfrog is anything special from a standpoint of sanitation - except there are a lot less pipes.

In general:

If you are not starting with a clean tub, you have an uphill slog in front of you. So to that end, purge your tub. Add AhhSome, run it for 20 min, and if stuff is still coming out, add more AhhSome, Keep doing so until no more Crud comes out of your pipes. While purging, remove your filters (feel free the let them float around in the tub to get cleaned though)

After a thorough cleaning (remove and flush the packs, drain the tub, etc) and fresh fill this is what I do

Use dichlor initially to add both Chlorine and CYA until my CYA gets to 30-40 ppm

Once CYA is in range, use bleach or liquid chlorine to add FC

Use MA to adjust pH as necessary

Use Calcium Chloride to get my CH in the 300 ppm range (see comments on this below)

For the first week or so, I test daily. My pH will rise every day, and I knock it down to around 7.2 with MA. I don't try to force the pH and TA into balance. I just keep adjusting pH until the TA naturally comes along to a balance point. It takes about 7 - 10 days in order to do so.

Once the pH / TA dance has concluded, I move on to steady state maintenance.

My tub, in and of itself, eats about 1.5 oz of bleach a day - from regular degradation along with the impact of my ozone system. So I add 1.5 oz most days (5 times a week maybe). I don't test every day, just dose the tub.

After use (normal bather load is pretty clean 2 people for 30 min) I dose with 2 oz of bleach.

Once a week (on Saturday for some reason) I add a scant 1 oz of AquaClarity. I really feel this helps to practically eliminate any sort of build up in my plumbing. I have next to no scum, even when I purge before a water change. There are two small dead spots in my tub where I know things will build up (The right inside of the filter compartment, and on the bottom of one side of the neck blaster jets) but other than that - nothing. NOTE ON CH: This is where the CH of 300 ppm comes into play. I find that if I go below 300 ppm of CH, I get a lot of foaming with the Aqua Clarity. Your mileage may vary, or you may not use AquaClarity, and therefore have no need to raise CH.

I test the water 2-3 times a week, and sometimes I have to add acid. CYA also does degrade, so every so often I test that just to make sure, and will boost it with dichlor if needed.

I go 3-4 months between water changes.

This is with an A6 which is smaller than the 7.

Notice what is not included anywhere in this story - MPS or Defoamer.

Chlorine reacts with organics in the water to form combined chloramines (CC). Then you need to oxidize the CC to get rid of them. Ozone will do it, MPS will do it, and ........ good old Chlorine will do it.
That is why I does right after we use the tub. In fact, in the winter I prepare the dose before we get in, and I leave it in a cup on the table. That way when I get out and it is cold, I don't need to mess around in the shed measuring bleach. I just dump in the pre-measured shot and all is take care of.

MPS is not bad per se (although apparently some people are allergic and get a bad rash from it) but it is not necessary - so it is an added expense, an extra chemical to maintain, and could cause rashes - why use it?

There is really no need to SLAM a tub that is maintained (or shock it depending on the terminology used). If you keep your FC at an appropriate level for your CYA, it keeps things in check.

Now the above is for normal day to day usage of my tub. If we are having a lot of people, or a party, or something else, then I will test, and depending on usage, dose with bleach mid-party (everyone get your dirty rears out of my tub for 10 minutes while I sanitize this thing)

 

[RDspaguy]

Just to be clear, spa frog and nature 2 are "mineral purifiers", using ionized silver as birth control for contaminants. Both require the use of additional sanitizer/oxydizer (chlorine, bromine, mps).
The frog-ease SYSTEM is a mineral purifier coupled with "smartchlor", a type of chlorine that has some issues with testing. If you are using the frog-ease system you have chlorine, though it will test as cc. Perhaps not enough, but it's there. I do not recommend smartchlor or the frog-ease system. I do recommend mineral purifiers.
Mineral purifiers with mps residual were recently approved by the epa as a sanitizer without a chlorine/bromine component. I also do not recommend this, or any use of mps.
Mineral purifiers are, in my opinion, best coupled with a good ozone system and chlorine.

 

[Newdude]

Mineral purifiers with mps residual were recently approved by the epa as a sanitizer without a chlorine/bromine component.

For spas, or drinking water ?

 

[RDspaguy]

For spas, or drinking water ?

For spas of course. You can't have an mps residual in drinking water.
I know, it's hard to fathom that chemgeek was wrong about something, but that wasn't the only time. I did feel just the slightest touch of vindication when Joyful told me about it. I didn't WANT to, but there it was. Now if they'll just take a closer look at ozone...

 

[Newdude]

For spas of course.

Got links ?

You can't have an mps residual in drinking water.

At spa levels no, but for all I know a t-r-a-c-e amount could be safe to drink. And it wouldn't be the first time situation A was misapplied to situation B.

I know, it's hard to fathom that chemgeek was wrong about something, but that wasn't the only time

Please stop with this nonsense. Many of those conversations ended a decade or longer ago. Science evolves and what was known at the parameters and abilities at the time, may not apply tomorrow.

At the very least, it's taken them this long to disprove him, possibly by tweaking things. Or with manufacturer funded studies that omit critical info. Or with well funded lobbyists.

 

[JamesW]

If you wanted to not use chlorine but still have a fast-acting disinfectant in the water, then using Nature2 with its silver ions and non-chlorine shock (MPS) would be better and would still work well with the ozonator. This is EPA-approved since the combination of silver (not copper) ions with non-chlorine shock results in more powerful oxidizers that disinfect (sulfate radicals and divalent silver ions as described in this post). Note that this is ONLY EPA-approved for spas, not for pools, because a hot water temperature is required for the silver/MPS combination to be effective as a disinfectant.

Mineral purifiers with mps residual were recently approved by the epa as a sanitizer without a chlorine/bromine component. I also do not recommend this, or any use of mps.

 

[JamesW]

• Nov 20, 2012

However, since you just want to use this in a hot tub and don't want to use halogens (chlorine, bromine), why don't you use the Nature2® Spa system which uses silver ions along with non-chlorine shock (MPS) and is EPA-approved for spas so kills bacteria quickly? That's the more common non-halogen system used for spas (the other is Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB). You may still need to use chlorine once in a while every week or two to keep the water clear, but not for every time you soak. Note however that MPS can be irritating for some people, but the silver ions in the Nature2 react with the most irritating minor component in MPS so it's not usually a problem.

There are only four EPA-approved disinfectants for use in spas: chlorine, bromine, Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB and Nature2 with MPS. Hydrogen peroxide is not approved in the U.S. (for commercial/public spas/pools; residential has no regulations except that no unapproved products can make any disinfection claims for pools/spas). When used, it has to be at rather high levels (50 ppm for pools; 100 ppm for spas) for it to be even within the ballpark in disinfecting capability and at this level it can be irritating to the skin. Most disinfectants that are strong oxidizers will be irritating to the skin. Even the Baquacil/biguaide/PHMB disinfectant uses hydrogen peroxide as its oxidizer (though at a lower level) but note that it is not the disinfectant and cannot be used alone in commercial/public pools in the U.S.

Using Hydrogen Peroxide as a sanitizer

Can anyone tell me if they have used hydrogen peroxide in a Softub hot tub before? I know it voids the warranty and I'm not concerned about that, but wondered if it was compatible with the liner and didn't cause degradation, or damage to plumbing. I'm not as familiar with the Softubs but am...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JamesW]

Silver and MPS has been approved for over ten years.

Smartchlor is just 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin.

The main problem with the Frog chlorine or bromine system is that silver chloride and silver bromide are both very insoluble.

So, it is very difficult to maintain a residual silver concentration when you have chloride or bromide in the water.

King technology has even acknowledged this in their documents.

Their claim is that DHM (dimethylhydantoin), which is the carrier for bromine tabs, protects the silver “somehow” from getting precipitated out with chloride or bromide.

https://www.kingtechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/@ease_SmartChlor_Cartridge_R1-10092018.pdf

 

[JamesW]

However, if the concentration of metallic ions such as silver ions in a body of water is too low the ability to kill microorganisms is reduced or lost.

One of the problems associated with the use of silver for killing microorganisms is that silver has a tendency to complex with other compounds and become increasingly insoluble thereby reducing the effective microorganisms killing ability of the silver.

For example, it would not be anticipated that silver chloride when used in combination with sodium bromide would be an effective prolong disinfectant system because of the combination's tendency to form insoluble silver bromide crystals, which are not believed to be biologically active in aqueous environments.

However, it has been discovered that if silver forms a complex with hydantoins, the silver will remain soluble to a higher degree thereby retaining the silver's antimicrobial activity.

US Patent Application for ION enhancement Patent Application (Application #20090200246 issued August 13, 2009) - Justia Patents Search

A method and apparatus for treating a body of water to kill microorganisms by enhancing the concentration metal ions therein. The apparatus comprising a dispenser with a first housing having a water accessible compartment containing a source of a N-halohydantoin compound for releasing the...

patents.justia.com

 

[JamesW]

https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloadPdf/20090200246

The Taylor K-1766 uses silver nitrate to test for salt (Specifically chloride) because silver complexes with chloride or bromide and forms an insoluble precipitate.

If the water contains any appreciable amount of chloride or bromide, the silver will be quickly precipitated out as silver chloride or silver bromide and the amount of silver will probably be inadequate.

Their claim that DMH prevents this is questionable at best.

 

[JamesW]

If you are using the frog-ease system you have chlorine, though it will test as cc.

Why will it test as CC?

I did feel just the slightest touch of vindication when Joyful told me about it.

Told you about what?

 

[JamesW]

DMH is similar to CYA in that the chlorine bonds to the nitrogen and it has an equilibrium in the water.

Just like CYA, most of the chlorine is probably bound to the DMH but it probably releases during the FASDPD test like with CYA, so it should test as FC and not CC.

1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin. Available chlorine 68%. water: soluble 0.21% at 25 °C(lit.)

The DMH might complex with silver to form silver 5,5-dimethyl hydantoin, but then the silver would not be available to kill germs.

If the silver is released, then it complexes as insoluble silver chloride.

For example, if the salinity is 100 ppm, then the maximum concentration of silver will be about 10 ppb (parts per billion).

The Ksp for AgCl is 1.6 x 10^-10 at 25°C, a very insoluble compound.

Molar mass: 58.44 g/mol

100 ppm NaCl = 100 mg/l = 0.1 grams per liter

.100 g/l = 0.00171 mol/L (moles per liter) Na and Cl.

0.00171 (Molarity of chloride) x (Molarity of silver) = 1.6 x 10^-10 = Ksp for AgCl

(Molarity of silver) = 9.3567 x 10^-8M

9.3567 x 10^-8M x 107.867 = 0.00001009281 grams per liter.

0.01009281 mg/l (ppm) or 10.09281 ppb.




____________________________________________________________________________________

https://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch18/ksp.php

 

[JamesW]

 

[JamesW]

The maximum amount of silver chloride that you could dissolve into distilled water is about 1.91 milligrams.

You would get about 1.435 ppm silver and about 0.47163 ppm chloride.

(0.0000133041M) x 107.8682 = 0.00143508931 grams per liter = 1.435 ppm silver

(0.0000133041M) x 35.45 = 0.00047163034 grams per liter = 0.47163 ppm chloride = 0.77749 sodium chloride.

However, as the salt level increases, the silver has to decrease.

So, if the salt level goes to 100 ppm, then the silver level has to drop to 11 ppb (parts per billion)

128.62 times the salt = 100 ppm sodium chloride.

128.62 times less silver = 11 ppb silver.

1.435 ppm silver x 0.77749 sodium chloride = 1.1157

ppm silver x ppm sodium chloride = 1.1157

ppm silver = 1.1157/ppm sodium chloride

At 500 ppm salt, the silver will be at 0.00223 ppm or 2.23 ppb.

ppb silver = 1,115.7/ppm sodium chloride.

 

[JamesW]

Silver is very difficult to maintain in pools or spas containing chloride or bromide.

Silver bromide is even less soluble than silver chloride.

The levels will be in the low PPBs, and probably below 20 ppb.

In my opinion, the silver is probably not going to be able to maintain the water quality.

Our EPA registration states that 0.5 ppm is all the chlorine a FROG pool needs; for hot tubs our minerals are EPA registered for use with either 1.0 ppm of bromine or 0.5 ppm of Smartchlor® (a unique chlorine used with FROG @ease®).

Explaining Mineral Technology - FROG Products

www.frogproducts.com

ensure a silver ion concentration of 10 to 50 ppb, preferably at least 20 ppb.

FIG. 1 shows a graph of the measured dissolved silver concentrations each week for the duration of the Spa Study 1. The average dissolved silver concentration for Spa Study 1 was 16 ppb. During week 10 the chloride measured 160 ppm. The level of silver that would be anticipated based on theoretical calculations of the chloride would be about 4.2 ppb, however, the actual measured silver was 23 ppb. This is almost a 6-fold greater than would be anticipated.

FIG. 2 shows a graph of the presentation of dissolved silver concentrations each week for the duration of the Spa Study 2 as compared to the theoretical calculations based on the chloride measurement. The average dissolved silver concentration for Spa Study 2 was 13 ppb. By the end of Spa Study 2 the measured level of silver was at least 3-fold greater than would be anticipated based on theoretical calculations.

The above results of Spa Studies 1, 2, and 3, as shown in FIGS. 1, 2, and 3 thus supports the finding that the combination of other types of N-halohydantoin compounds such as DCDMH with a metal ion donor such silver chloride enhances a concentration of metal ions in a body of water by retaining or increasing the solubility of metal ions from other metal ion donors to retain the antimicrobial activity of the metal ions in the body of water.

[0044]

Per the inventor's above findings, it is anticipated that N-halohydantoin compounds of the formula shown below can be used in this invention.

US20140369886A1 - Water treatment - Google Patents

An apparatus and a method of extending a use life of a body of recreational water while reducing a concentration of chlorine required to effectively sanitize the body of recreational water, the method comprising the steps of adding a sanitizing concentration of total available chlorine to the...

patents.google.com

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/cleared_reviews/csr_PC-072501_6-Oct-04_a.pdf

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/cleared_reviews/csr_PC-072501_1-Jul-04_a.pdf

WATER TREATMENT - KING JOSEPH A.

<div p-id="p-0001">A system and method for maintaining a body of water in a sanitized condition with use of a halogen and a source of silver ions wherein the halogen is maintained at 50% to 75% less t

www.freepatentsonline.com