Conduit freeze worries?

[generessler]

Just moved to North Carolina to a house with a pool. Around here about half of pools run all winter. We decided to give it a try.

Equipment pad is over a foot above pool level, so all water in the pool lighting conduits is below frost (1 foot). All good.

The problem is the spa. Water there is higher, so the conduit is wet up to ground level at the pad.

How worried do I need to be about this? The top 1 foot of the conduit is subject to freezing.

Apparently the pool professional who maintained things for the previous owners was fine with it. But I would not like to see that conduit become a leak.

One other note: The pool pad is adjacent to our semi-heated garage. The conduits come above ground about 3 feet from the foundation.

I had the thought to push something compressible like a piece of plastic tube with a sealed end down the conduit so it does the same as a skimmer gizmo, absorbing ice expansion.

All help appreciated.

 

[cowboycasey]

It would be easier to tent the pool pad and spa with plastic/tarp with a heat lamp or old style 60 to 100 watt light... on the pool pad you can also install heat wrap and turn it on when it gets below 30 degrees...

in your area most just turn the pump on during the night when the temp gets down to 20 degrees

 

[generessler]

It would be easier to tent the pool pad and spa with plastic/tarp with a heat lamp or old style 60 to 100 watt light... on the pool pad you can also install heat wrap and turn it on when it gets below 30 degrees...

in your area most just turn the pump on during the night when the temp gets down to 20 degrees

Thanks. I'm running the pump. No problem there. But water in the conduit isn't flowing. The pipe that would freeze is in the ground, from surface down to 1 foot frost line. So to use heat wrap I'd need to dig. Hoping for something simple if possible, since it's just one foot of conduit and all else is fine.

 

[Mdragger88]

If you’re concerned about electrical conduits- don’t be. Some electrical conduits do get ground water seepage but it’s not usually a problem. The only issue that may arise is if you need to re- pull the wire for some reason & the conduit is jagged due to busting. (Which is a longshot) Are they not covered with weatherproof electrical boxes?
the light niches in your spa are sealed from the conduit- otherwise you would be leaking water from them.

 

[cowboycasey]

ahaaaa, the power conduit for the lights... did not think about those... Those are going to be hard to get too... I do not know of any heat tape that can be buried, I just looked and the best solution someone came up with is to bury a pipe over the conduit and put the heat tape inside the second pipe, make it so you can open the ends of the pipe so you can pull the old heat tape out and install a new one when it fails..

Other than that is to put more dirt over the pipe or dig it down further... all of these are not great and none of those solutions will work for your spa conduit... Maybe someone else will think of something

 

[Mdragger88]

@cowboycasey my point was that there are electrical conduits with live wires buried all over the country with ground water in them & it rarely poses a problem. So the op should not be concerned with that as long as he has weatherproof boxes/fittings where his terminations are -
The plumbing is another matter & the lines could be blown out & plugged if the spa is not in use or if that pipe is not in use.

 

[homegameroom]

So either your niche lamp is leaking some water into the conduit or the conduit is not sealed for some reason - maybe the conduit cracked years ago due to ground water getting in and freezing or it has a bad joint somewhere.

You could try to fill the pipe as high as you can with dyed RV antifreeze (clothing dye is probably cheaper to add and more concentrated than food dye). Make sure the antifreeze is colored enough to enable you to see a small leak.

Does the pipe stay full? There is no leak or crack anywhere and you just filled it with antifreeze so relax and enjoy your winter but seal up the top so rain doesn't continue to get in. Did the level go down? There is a leak somewhere. Is there dye in your spa light niche? Then the leak is at the light niche connection, which isn't too difficult to fix (ask me how I know that ). Is there no dye in your spa light niche? Then the conduit is compromised somewhere.

The bottom line is that it probably will never be an issue if the conduit is compromised unless you want/need to replace the light in the future. Replacing the conduit due to a small leak is probably more effort and expense than it is worth.

 

[generessler]

So either your niche lamp is leaking some water into the conduit or the conduit is not sealed for some reason - maybe the conduit cracked years ago due to ground water getting in and freezing or it has a bad joint somewhere.

You could try to fill the pipe as high as you can with dyed RV antifreeze (clothing dye is probably cheaper to add and more concentrated than food dye). Make sure the antifreeze is colored enough to enable you to see a small leak.

Does the pipe stay full? There is no leak or crack anywhere and you just filled it with antifreeze so relax and enjoy your winter but seal up the top so rain doesn't continue to get in. Did the level go down? There is a leak somewhere. Is there dye in your spa light niche? Then the leak is at the light niche connection, which isn't too difficult to fix (ask me how I know that ). Is there no dye in your spa light niche? Then the conduit is compromised somewhere.

The bottom line is that it probably will never be an issue if the conduit is compromised unless you want/need to replace the light in the future. Replacing the conduit due to a small leak is probably more effort and expense than it is worth.

Thanks for helping me out. According to everything I've ever read (for example this), pool and spa light conduits are wet and meant to be so. had to replace the light last summer. The conduit was full up to the spa's level before and after. There's a strain relief at the back of the Pentaire niche, but it's not a waterproof gland.

 

[homegameroom]

I recently found a leak in my spa from the light niche wire conduit/connector. I drained the spa and jammed some butyl tape where the light cord exits the niche and voila! No more leaky spa!

I used my syringe of dye while the spa was full and could see the dye seeping out. It was fairly easy to diagnose.

 

[generessler]

Just moved to North Carolina to a house with a pool. Around here about half of pools run all winter. We decided to give it a try.

Equipment pad is over a foot above pool level, so all water in the pool lighting conduits is below frost (1 foot). All good.

The problem is the spa. Water there is higher, so the conduit is wet up to ground level at the pad.

How worried do I need to be about this? The top 1 foot of the conduit is subject to freezing.

Apparently the pool professional who maintained things for the previous owners was fine with it. But I would not like to see that conduit become a leak.

One other note: The pool pad is adjacent to our semi-heated garage. The conduits come above ground about 3 feet from the foundation.

I had the thought to push something compressible like a piece of plastic tube with a sealed end down the conduit so it does the same as a skimmer gizmo, absorbing ice expansion.

All help appreciated.

Okay. I found this, which supports what Mdragger88 said. (THANKS!) Point being, if the water isn't restricted by a valve or other blockage, it just expands along the length of the pipe, so freezing rarely causes a problem. Since there is only foot or so of possible freeze length, I'm feeling much less nervous about this situation.

I also went ahead plugged up one end of a length of a flexible 3/8" plastic tube and pushed it 3' down into the conduit from the top, so now there's a 1/4" diameter air pocket in the freeze zone ... like a mini skimmer gizmo.

So I think I'll stop worrying about this and move on to worry about something else . Pool upkeep seems to provide all the worry you could desire...

I really appreciate all your remarks and help.

Take care and have great holidays, all.

 

[sktn77a]

I don't know who wrote that for Farm Bureau but I'd take it with a grain of salt. We have a copper pipe in out garage attic with a low spot only ~12" long. Every year we drain the pipe but water remains in that low spot and every year that pipe bursts. We installed a cutoff before the low spot and keep it off. The low spot has burst (again) but we just don't use that pipe any more.

Having said that, I suspect your conduit will be fine - it's been fine since the pool was built.

 

[Turbo1Ton]

We have a copper pipe in out garage attic with a low spot only ~12" long. Every year we drain the pipe but water remains in that low spot and every year that pipe bursts. We installed a cutoff before the low spot and keep it off. The low spot has burst (again) but we just don't use that pipe any more.

Did you leave the pipe open at one end? I believe that is the key to that. That is why they recommend leaving a faucet dripping. That gives the pressure spike a place to go, instead of splitting the pipe open. Even with air, the reduction in volume will result in an increase in pressure, and that could be enough to burst the pipe. Unless of course it is the ice block itself that is splitting the pipe.

Here is an interesting mock up of what happens. This seems to mimic the Farm Bureau information -

--Jeff