Cloudy/milky particles after jets run - bromine tub

[WaterDog5]

I'm a relatively new tub owner and have learned a lot of information thanks to the knowledgeable people on this forum, but I have searched and haven't found any definitive answers to the issue I'm having. The problem is that when the pumps have been off for a while the water looks clear, but after they run, the water turns a cloudy/milky white with little white particles floating around. I don't think they're bubbles because when I rinsed the filter yesterday and then put it back in the filter area, the water that was displaced as I was dropping in the filter came up was milky white, like the particles are heavier than water and settle down into the plumbing. And that's why I figure it happens when the jets come on, that they settle to the bottom and then get stirred up when the water is in motion.

My tub is a small Lifesmart LS100 200 gallon tub. I'm using the bromine Frog Serene system with the blue mineral cartridge and the yellow bromine cartridge. I know I should invest in a higher quality test kit like the Taylor ones, but since I'm not sure if bromine is the source of the problem I'm having I'm using the Frog test strips and a Poolmaster basic drop kit that does Ph and TA. The Poolmaster kit I think only does residual bromine and not free so I use the strips for free bromine. I also added 50ppm of borates through boric acid.

My current numbers from the combo of the strips and drop kit are:
Free bromine 10+
TA: 50
ph: 7.6
TH: 150

Bromine is high because I recently shocked with a 1/4 cup of bleach to try and clear up the cloudiness as that seemed to work for some other posters. My fill water is only two weeks old and I used a hose filter for metals. It doesn't look like the chlorine shock fixed it for me though, the water is still milky when jets are on. I have photos attached with the still water, pump on and no aeration, and then with aeration.

One thing I do wonder is if it could be undissolved particles of the bromine tablets? I bought bromine tabs of the same chemical composition as what comes in the Frog yellow cartridge and I took the top off that and put the tabs in there, and I noticed that the feeder hole on the yellow cartridge has become discolored white as the bromine has been exiting the little holes. Could that be what's causing the milkiness?

Any ideas as what the cause of this cloudiness could be and how to fix it would be great. This is my second fill of the tub and by the end of the second month on the first fill the water was super milky and while it felt fine to use, my wife didn't want to get in and it does take some enjoyment out when the water isn't clear. And it looks like the second fill is already starting to get milky again after only a couple weeks.

 

[Bperry]

I'm a relatively new tub owner and have learned a lot of information thanks to the knowledgeable people on this forum, but I have searched and haven't found any definitive answers to the issue I'm having. The problem is that when the pumps have been off for a while the water looks clear, but after they run, the water turns a cloudy/milky white with little white particles floating around. I don't think they're bubbles because when I rinsed the filter yesterday and then put it back in the filter area, the water that was displaced as I was dropping in the filter came up was milky white, like the particles are heavier than water and settle down into the plumbing. And that's why I figure it happens when the jets come on, that they settle to the bottom and then get stirred up when the water is in motion.

My tub is a small Lifesmart LS100 200 gallon tub. I'm using the bromine Frog Serene system with the blue mineral cartridge and the yellow bromine cartridge. I know I should invest in a higher quality test kit like the Taylor ones, but since I'm not sure if bromine is the source of the problem I'm having I'm using the Frog test strips and a Poolmaster basic drop kit that does Ph and TA. The Poolmaster kit I think only does residual bromine and not free so I use the strips for free bromine. I also added 50ppm of borates through boric acid.

My current numbers from the combo of the strips and drop kit are:
Free bromine 10+
TA: 50
ph: 7.6
TH: 150

Bromine is high because I recently shocked with a 1/4 cup of bleach to try and clear up the cloudiness as that seemed to work for some other posters. My fill water is only two weeks old and I used a hose filter for metals. It doesn't look like the chlorine shock fixed it for me though, the water is still milky when jets are on. I have photos attached with the still water, pump on and no aeration, and then with aeration.

One thing I do wonder is if it could be undissolved particles of the bromine tablets? I bought bromine tabs of the same chemical composition as what comes in the Frog yellow cartridge and I took the top off that and put the tabs in there, and I noticed that the feeder hole on the yellow cartridge has become discolored white as the bromine has been exiting the little holes. Could that be what's causing the milkiness?

Any ideas as what the cause of this cloudiness could be and how to fix it would be great. This is my second fill of the tub and by the end of the second month on the first fill the water was super milky and while it felt fine to use, my wife didn't want to get in and it does take some enjoyment out when the water isn't clear. And it looks like the second fill is already starting to get milky again after only a couple weeks.

The strips are completely useless to measure anything. The TF test kit will test everything. Even if it’s a bromine you just have to use a different multiplier to get the bromine level? Or are you stuck with the OTO test when using bromine?

 

[kimkats]

I am going to ask a very important question........................when was the last time you deep cleaned the pipes in the pretty spa?

There is a product made just for this purpose. It is called Ahh-some. I am going to ping a guy who knows this stuff very well @Ahhsomeguy this one is for you!

A spa/hot tub should be cleaned even when it is brand new. See they water test them at the factory. When they drain them there is still some water left in the pipes that like to start growing yucky stuff. It only gets worse as time and use goes on.

When you do the purge you need to make sure to be there with paper towels so you can wipe up all of the stuff that comes out of the pipes so it does not stick to the sides. It is much harder to get off if you don't do it right away.

 

[Biggen]

I'm a relatively new tub owner and have learned a lot of information thanks to the knowledgeable people on this forum, but I have searched and haven't found any definitive answers to the issue I'm having. The problem is that when the pumps have been off for a while the water looks clear, but after they run, the water turns a cloudy/milky white with little white particles floating around. I don't think they're bubbles because when I rinsed the filter yesterday and then put it back in the filter area, the water that was displaced as I was dropping in the filter came up was milky white, like the particles are heavier than water and settle down into the plumbing. And that's why I figure it happens when the jets come on, that they settle to the bottom and then get stirred up when the water is in motion.

My tub is a small Lifesmart LS100 200 gallon tub. I'm using the bromine Frog Serene system with the blue mineral cartridge and the yellow bromine cartridge. I know I should invest in a higher quality test kit like the Taylor ones, but since I'm not sure if bromine is the source of the problem I'm having I'm using the Frog test strips and a Poolmaster basic drop kit that does Ph and TA. The Poolmaster kit I think only does residual bromine and not free so I use the strips for free bromine. I also added 50ppm of borates through boric acid.

My current numbers from the combo of the strips and drop kit are:
Free bromine 10+
TA: 50
ph: 7.6
TH: 150

Bromine is high because I recently shocked with a 1/4 cup of bleach to try and clear up the cloudiness as that seemed to work for some other posters. My fill water is only two weeks old and I used a hose filter for metals. It doesn't look like the chlorine shock fixed it for me though, the water is still milky when jets are on. I have photos attached with the still water, pump on and no aeration, and then with aeration.

One thing I do wonder is if it could be undissolved particles of the bromine tablets? I bought bromine tabs of the same chemical composition as what comes in the Frog yellow cartridge and I took the top off that and put the tabs in there, and I noticed that the feeder hole on the yellow cartridge has become discolored white as the bromine has been exiting the little holes. Could that be what's causing the milkiness?

Any ideas as what the cause of this cloudiness could be and how to fix it would be great. This is my second fill of the tub and by the end of the second month on the first fill the water was super milky and while it felt fine to use, my wife didn't want to get in and it does take some enjoyment out when the water isn't clear. And it looks like the second fill is already starting to get milky again after only a couple weeks.

Looks like detergent foam. When we first got our tub we made the mistake of washing our suits. Anytime we used the jets the surface turned into a bubble bath. Now we never wash them. Keeps detergent out of the spa completely.

How many tablets do you put in? I put a maximum of 4 in my Pentair 335 floater. I also purchased the screen accessory that Pentair sells for that floater that slips over the bottom where it dispenses the bromine. This ensures smaller particles of the tabs are kept in the floater so they dissolve more completely and can’t slip out of the floater as larger pieces that are undissolved.

I never thought to put bromine tabs in my inline frog cartridges that were empty.

 

[Mdragger88]

We really don’t recommend the frog (mainly due to the minerals for the bromine version) but I am not sure the mineral cartridge is necessarily to blame for what you’re describing (increasingly milky/cloudy water). That points More likely to improper sanitation. The total Br should be maintained at 4-6ppm all the time. Failing to do so will result in funky water sooner rather than later. With the chlorine version of the frog many report that either it doesn’t keep up with sanitizer demand or alternatively it over chlorinates so its not as set & forget as they make it seem. There’s also the expense. So something to think about. Not sure if those are issues for you with the bromine version.
Btw- The 1st pic looks fine & not cloudy/milky. I too have a lifesmart tub & there’s really no air control so its gonna be bubbly & unclear when the jets are running & for a little bit after until the water calms down. If it’s cloudy when its been still (no jets for a while) you have a problem. As mentioned above-leftover detergents or fabric softener in clothes can cause a foaming condition as can the use of bleach that is splashless, has cloromax technology, fabric conditioners or scents. Hair conditioner or lotions can do this as well.
If your tub is like mine with only one filter you may want to give it more frequent rinses. The solution to these issues is maintaining enough sanitizer to help oxidize them & also giving the filter time to catch them.
I do want To clear something up - the only metric that you can test for is total bromine.
Whether it be strips, yellow OTO, or an fas/dpd titration test.

Sodium Bromide - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

I suggest that you purge the tub with Ahhsome & start over using this guide.

How do I use Bromine in my Spa or Hot Tub?

Originally Posted by waterbear There is a lot of misinformation on the proper way to use Bromine so I hope this primer is helpful. First, you need to establish a bromide reserve in the water. Bromine tablets can do it by themselves but it can take literally weeks until enough dissolves. Some...

www.google.com

With proper sanitizer maintenance you should be able to go 3-6 months between purge, drain & refills.

 

[WaterDog5]

Thanks for the replies everyone I really appreciate it.

So Mdragger 88, are you saying that regardless of test method, with bromine you'll only ever be able to test for total bromine, and not like the amount of activated bromine vs. unactivated bromine in the bromine bank? That's interesting- and I just checked the instructions for the Taylor k2106 online and it says only total bromine so that must be right. For the moment I am just using the frog test strips and then a poolmaster 22260 kit which doesn't specify the method. I've read FAS-DPD is the best. But since it seems like most people on the forum prefer chlorine I may wait to see if I make the switch to chlorine from bromine myself before buying a more expensive kit because it looks like there are bromine specific kits and chlorine specific ones.

I never have used ahhsome or a pipe cleaning product but can definitely try. After the recent water change, the water was super clear even with the jets on for like a week, which makes me think the cloudiness was something that was introduced after it was being used for a while and wasn't already sitting in the pipes. I was wondering if a clarifier would be a good product as it is supposed to clump particulates together so the filter can catch them more easily.

And Biggen yes I did put 4 or 5 of the bromine pucks into the dispenser but I will look into getting a different floater like the one you referenced. To save money I saw on youtube you can pop the top off the Frog cartridges to add more bromine tabs, but maybe the tabs don't really work well with the frog dispensers as I think from the factory the bromine inside them is like in kind of crystal powder form to begin with and not the solid pucks. I kind of bought into the Frog system on a whim because it seemed like a simple solution and you can use less bromine because of the minerals in the blue cartridge. But it seems like a lot of people on the forums don't care for it. Maybe it's just not putting out enough bromine to keep up, and since it's only 200 gallons the water gets dirty really quickly. They say to keep the bromine level between 1 and 2 ppm with the frog but it is really hard to maintain in that window.

Thanks again everybody I will try these suggestions out and see what results I get.

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Hello WaterDog5: Your images, even the one with still water, tell me that your tub has bio-contaminants in the water or on the shell itself. For now, in an effort to eliminate biofilms as the culprit, PURGE your plumbing with Ahh-Some Gel. Follow the instructions and do a second purge using the same water after the first purge. Drain, rinse and wipe completely. Be sure to place the filter in the water as the purge process is operating. Remove any snap in headrests as well. Splash water from the purge on the underside of the cover to eliminate organics and stickies that may be present. After the refill, I strongly recommend that you consider a maintenance program where chlorine is your sanitizer instead of bromine. Chlorine is much easier to use and will even save you money.
You can contact our company directly if you need further support at 860-896-0836.
PS: Please also note that when you introduce air through the intake venturis while running the jets the water can cloud as the off gassing of the hydrogen and oxygen occurs. After a few minutes with everything shut off the water will clear. This is NORMAL. Please re-post to the forum your results after the purge and if the situation you describe is attenuated.

 

[Mdragger88]

Thanks for the replies everyone I really appreciate it.

So Mdragger 88, are you saying that regardless of test method, with bromine you'll only ever be able to test for total bromine, and not like the amount of activated bromine vs. unactivated bromine in the bromine bank?

Correct

That's interesting- and I just checked the instructions for the Taylor k2106 online and it says only total bromine so that must be right. For the moment I am just using the frog test strips and then a poolmaster 22260 kit which doesn't specify the method.

Your poolmaster kit uses OTO (orthotolidine) so a reading of 3ppm total chlorine = roughly 6ppm total br

I've read FAS-DPD is the best. But since it seems like most people on the forum prefer chlorine I may wait to see if I make the switch to chlorine from bromine myself before buying a more expensive kit because it looks like there are bromine specific kits and chlorine specific ones.

You can use the Taylor k2006 or the tf100 to test for total bromine - you just multiply the fc result by 2.25
On the yellow oto they just multiply by 2 - close enough & definitely better than strips so use that for now

I never have used ahhsome or a pipe cleaning product but can definitely try. After the recent water change, the water was super clear even with the jets on for like a week, which makes me think the cloudiness was something that was introduced after it was being used for a while and wasn't already sitting in the pipes. I was wondering if a clarifier would be a good product as it is supposed to clump particulates together so the filter can catch them more easily.

Don’t use clarifier - not good for your filter & you’ll need to replace much sooner.
Keep adequate sanitizer (4-6ppm total br) & keep rinsing the filter out.

And Biggen yes I did put 4 or 5 of the bromine pucks into the dispenser but I will look into getting a different floater like the one you referenced. To save money I saw on youtube you can pop the top off the Frog cartridges to add more bromine tabs, but maybe the tabs don't really work well with the frog dispensers as I think from the factory the bromine inside them is like in kind of crystal powder form to begin with and not the solid pucks. I kind of bought into the Frog system on a whim because it seemed like a simple solution and you can use less bromine because of the minerals in the blue cartridge. But it seems like a lot of people on the forums don't care for it. Maybe it's just not putting out enough bromine to keep up, and since it's only 200 gallons the water gets dirty really quickly

1 person in a 200 gal hot tub is like having 100+ people in a 25k gallon pool. You must anticipate this high bather load and be sure your sanitizer starts out high enough to cover it while using the tub without falling below 2ppm before you can add more.

. They say to keep the bromine level between 1 and 2 ppm with the frog but it is really hard to maintain in that window.

First off - ignore what “they” say.
“They” have you in an unsanitary tub. You must maintain a higher residual or you will keep having these issues. “They” claim because of the silver that you can maintain lower sanitizer levels- you can see where that landed you. Dumping the water every month & subpar water inbetween.
Some people still like having the silver as a backup for “in case” but it should not be relied upon day in/day out.
The frog’s bromine cartridge contents are bromide & dichlor- it “activates itself” so to speak but at its own pace. Its a glorified & pricey 3 step bromine system. The cartridges are 103% more expensive than just buying the tablets in a bucket.
Bromine Tabs $14 /#
Bromine Frog carts $44/#
If you have used it for any length of time you likely have a sodium bromide bank by now so you can just use liquid chlorine to activate more of that bank and reach the recommended 4-6ppm total br before using the tub. Or whenever needed. This will not have the acidic effects of using more Dichlor products (aka -turning up the frog) that may tank your ph/ta.
For simplicity’s sake - If you need 2ppm increase in total br you would use
PoolMath to calculate 1ppm worth of liquid chlorine of your chosen strength.

Thanks again everybody I will try these suggestions out and see what results I get.

As Jim would say- you’re feeding the wrong end of the horse.
Buying expensive cartridges (that don’t perform well anyway) but not a reliable kit to manage your tub properly.
Ditch the frog stuff (especially the strips) & get a kit asap.
Get some Ahhsome & then start fresh using the guide I posted.
(Its also pinned to the top of this subforum)
In the interim manage your total br at adequate levels (4-6ppm) with the oto kit you already have whilst using up the remaining frog contents
*When sanitizer levels are above 10ppm the ph readings are invalid so don’t adjust ph during that time.