Clarifiers - what are they?

[tomfrh]

Here in bunnings Australia there are these products:

Hyclor cloud out pool reviver (lanthanum chloride inorganic polymers)

Hyclor Salt activ clarifier (polyammonium chloride)

Hyclor cloud out high Strength clarifier (6% polyammnium chloride)

Hyclor clarifier (inorganic polymers)

Pts clarifier (iorganic polymers)


What are all these chemicals? What do they do? Are they of any use in a salt pool with cartridge filter like mine?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Tom,

Let's see if @JoyfulNoise can chime in..

I personally see no reason to use any of them.. I have used the TFP pool care process for almost 7 years, and have never had any reason to add them.. But I have no "technical" theory on what they actually are supposed to do.. I can only assume there main job is to clog your filter and remove money from your pocket and put it into the pocket of your pool store..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Here in bunnings Australia there are these products:

Hyclor cloud out pool reviver (lanthanum chloride inorganic polymers)

This product is a phosphate remover similar to the retail brand sold in the USA called PhosFree. Lanthanum chloride reacts with phosphates to form an insoluble precipitate but, because it can be very finely dispersed, they add polymeric clarifiers to help sand filters remove the precipitate. It doesn't work well and the lanthanum concentration is fairly low so you have to buy and use lots of these products to get them to work. I use commercial grade phosphate remover which is pure lanthanum chloride without clarifiers.

Hyclor Salt activ clarifier (polyammonium chloride)

Hyclor cloud out high Strength clarifier (6% polyammnium chloride)

It's polyALUMINUM chloride. PAC is an inorganic flocculant. The aluminum is a trivalent ion that reacts with water to form a hydroxide which binds to particulates in the water and causes them to clump together and fall out of solution. Flocculants must be dispersed into the water surface (a spray applicator works best) and then allowed to react with the particulates and settle out of solution. The resulting floc (gunk on the bottom of your pool) then needs to be vacuumed (slowly) to waste. You NEVER run a floc through your filter as that is the best way to gum it up and cause a huge mess. Likewise, you NEVER use flocculants and metal stain removers at the stain time or else you will turn the pool water into a cloudy mess.

Hyclor clarifier (inorganic polymers)

Pts clarifier (iorganic polymers)

These are polymeric clarifiers. They cause suspended solids to stick together making larger particle sizes that can be filtered more efficiently. Clarifiers have some use in pools, but they are no better than adding DE to a sand filter and should never be used with cartridge or DE filters.

Basically NONE of those chemicals are necessary in spite of what the pool stores will tell you. They make the pool stores lots of money on sales every year and leave lots of pool owners with headaches to clean up when their misuse results in a huge mess.

 

[tomfrh]

It's polyALUMINUM chloride.

The bottles say polyammonium?

Hy-Clor 1L SaltActiv Clarifier

Find Hy-Clor 1L SaltActiv Clarifier at Bunnings. Visit your local store for the widest range of products.

www.bunnings.com.au

As for the phosphate remover, why do you need it, and does that work ok with cartridge filter?

 

[brendio]

The bottles say polyammonium?

Hy-Clor 1L SaltActiv Clarifier

Find Hy-Clor 1L SaltActiv Clarifier at Bunnings. Visit your local store for the widest range of products.

www.bunnings.com.au

That's interesting. The SDS lists it as poly aluminium chloride. Stuff up by the graphic designer and QC department?

As for the phosphate remover, why do you need it, and does that work ok with cartridge filter?

The theory behind phosphate removers are that phosphate is algae food, so their use can decrease algae growth. But if you are following TFP methods, you will always have enough chlorine in your pool to stop the algae growing anyway.

 

[tomfrh]

he theory behind phosphate removers are that phosphate is algae food, so their use can decrease algae growth. But if you are following TFP methods, you will always have enough chlorine in your pool to stop the algae growing anyway.

I get black spot growing regardless of chlorine levels. Maybe I should try the phosphate removers.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Black algae has a very specific treatment plan and you can find details about it in TFPs PoolSchool.

You should never blindly use phosphate removers. First measure your phosphate levels using a test kit and then figure out the source of phosphates in your water. It’s a waste of money if you don’t understand how and why phosphates are getting into your water and you won’t know how to treat them without knowing their levels in your water.

 

[tomfrh]

Black algae has a very specific treatment plan and you can find details about it in TFPs PoolSchool.

I’ve done that several times over several seasons. The black algae still comes back at rougher areas despite FC being high.

It always come back once water gets up around 30C. I monitor CYA and I keep FC up. The black algae doesn’t care. It comes back.

 

[tomfrh]

First measure your phosphate levels using a test kit and then figure out the source of phosphates in your water.

I got the pool shop to measure phospahtes. Level is 0.1 ppm

 

[mgtfp]

0.1ppm is about nothing. There are members here than have phosphate in the 1000s and have no algae issues.

What's your CYA and FC? Maybe you just have to go a tad higher? Black algae are tough little buggers once they're settled.

 

[tomfrh]

CYA 40, FC 5+

 

[mgtfp]

Since you have a SWG, I'd recommend to increase your CYA towards 80. At higher CYA the same FC/CYA ratio (i.e. the same active chlorine level) can be maintained with smaller absolute FC loss, reducing the risk to slip below min. Instead of FC 5 @ CYA 40, you might be more successful with FC 10-11 @ CYA 80. As far as I understand, there is a shielding effect at higher CYA levels in the higher water layers that results in additional UV protection in the lower layers.

But first you should get rid of the black algae with your current CYA.

 

[tomfrh]

But first you should get rid of the black algae with your current CYA.

I'd love to know how. I brush it away, and it reappears when the water warms up. It's not severe, but it's there in places.

 

[mgtfp]

Have you tried keeping your FC much higher? You might have to maintain FC for a prolonged period closer to SLAM level and keep brushing as much as you can as described here

Black Algae

This guide provides a step by step procedure for eliminating black algae in your concrete or gunite pool. Read full post here.

www.troublefreepool.com

You can keep using your pool up to SLAM level. The closer you can keep it to SLAM-level, the faster you should be able to get the black algae under control, but you'll have add more chlorine per day to compensate UV-losses.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Black algae can be difficult to eradicate especially in a plaster pool. The algae forms root-like structures called hyphae that grow into the plaster. The algae also has a thickened cell wall with a slime layer that protects it from sanitizers. Eradication usually requires prolonged elevated sanitizer levels and scrubbing with a steel-wire brush to help break up the algae. Some pool professionals have been known to drain pools and treat the affected surfaces directly with chlorine bleach to kill the algae. There’s also those that will recommend torching the plaster surface to thermally kill the algae. None of those techniques are bulletproof and they can easily cause damage to the plaster. It’s definitely a tough problem to solve. Most pool stores will recommend directly treating with a bromine based sanitizer but that will leave the water contaminated with bromide which will cause excessive FC demand. There’s no good solution, only a lot of elbow grease and constant vigilance.

 

[tomfrh]

The problem is that the black algae spots reappear when the pool is warm which is when the pool is in most active use.

The spots are not severe enough to stop using the pool to drain it, or SLAM/shock it. I know you can swim in very high FC, but I prefer not, particularly if there are other peoples kids in the pool, which there often are.

I know I can keep brushing brushing brushing, but that's not a great solution. It's more sign that the problem won't go away!

Does anyone know what this magic product is that they're selling:

Black Spot algae in your pool? | Remove it without draining (thepoolstainremovers.com.au)

 

[mgtfp]

I assume that algaecide contains copper, which will create problems down the road.

Interestingly, on that same page they are already advertising their magical copper remover. Nice business model : First sell a product that adds copper, then sell a second product to remove copper (not sure if that's even possible).

Do you know that the active chlorine levels at public indoor pools (without CYA) is much higher than in a TFP pool at SLAM level? They need something like FC 4 to have enough residual chlorine to not drop below the legal minimum for public pools. But without CYA, those 4ppm are much harsher than TFP's SLAM FC with CYA.

Just try it out: Go to SLAM and see if your family even notices a difference.

 

[mknauss]

You do not go to SLAM level for black algae. Read Black Algae - Trouble Free Pool

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Most black algae products fall into three categories -

1. Sodium bromide;
2. Metal ion (copper); Or
3. Aminopolycarboxylic acids (like EDTA);

Bromine is a very effective algaecide but causes FC demand and does not go away. Copper is also a good algaecide but will stain surfaces. The third category is meant to be directly applied to the affected area where free chlorine reacts with EDTA to form a massive CC concentration. Monochloramine is technically a good algaecide but it creates messes of its own.

None of those solutions effectively eliminates the hyphae embedded in the plaster and so the BA will eventually return. Sustained high levels of chlorine can eventually kill all the BA but you have to scrub it in to eliminate the hyphae. There are plaster scrubbing tools that come with attachments to allow you to chemically spot treat a pool surface under water. You might look into those to see if they could be of assistance.

 

[mgtfp]

You do not go to SLAM level for black algae. Read Black Algae - Trouble Free Pool

Just to clarify my last post: I already mentioned earlier in the thread that the black algae process requires maintaining high FC, 'closer' to SLAM-FC, with a link to the black algae article.

My last statement "go to SLAM" was intended to give Tom confidence that no one will even notice that the FC is higher than usual, I didn't mean "follow the SLAM process" to kill your black algae.