Autofill questions

[ramblinwreck001]

Hi folks,

My auto-fill device has stopped working reliably and I have some questions on how to repair/replace.
Context is this is on a new-to-me pool (as of July) so I don't know the history of this particular equipment..

Questions:

1. Can toilet fill valves be used for pool autofill, or are there pool-specific valves that should be used? I ask because my pool appears to be using a Kohler 1138930 fill valve (see photos), which says "Fluidmaster 400MODEL" on the float, which as far as I can tell is an ordinary toilet fill valve you get at the local home center and not a pool specific device. Further, there is a warning printed on the side "do not use chlorine (bleach) cleaners in tank water" which makes me think this device is ill suited for chlorinated pool water.

2. Can someone suggest what part I should buy to replace my existing fill valve? I'm 99% sure my device was originally a Poolmiser PM-101 (the lid, not shown, says "Poolmiser" and looks exactly like photos of the PM-101). Considering that, should I:

• replace with same Kohler part I pulled out
• some other fill valve, if so, what?

I see that Poolmiser and Pentair offer valves in the $30+ range which look exactly like the $10 fluid master from Home Depot.. Are they different?

 

[ajw22]

From AutoFill - Further Reading

Pentair T29 is the replacement FluidMaster valve. The correct replacement part for a pool auto-filler is slightly different than the one used in a toilet tank. An auto-filler valve doesn't have the black tube. It might have the barb fitting on which a tube could be pushed, but it's actually plugged up.

This thread has a comparison between a $25 PoolMiser autofill valve and a $10 Lowes FluidMaster valve. The only noticeable difference between my old valve and the Lowes valve is the way the port for the toilet bowl filler tube is blocked in the Poolmiser version, where it is open in the Lowe's version. Other than that, the parts are all near-identical.

To unscrew the FluidMaster valve from the canister the top with the arm needs to be removed. This video shows how it is done.

Paramount has a new water leveler ParaLevel that uses their own version of a valve similar to the FluidMaster. Paralevel’s “Posi-click” adjustment has one full turn equal to ¼” (6 mm) of water level adjustment. Unlike other water levelers Paralevel offers “Smart Sensing”, which means it will ignore water sloshing in the pool as it only senses the pools true level. “Smart Sensing” also protects Paralevel so it will not cycle on and off rapidly, like other levelers.

 

[ramblinwreck001]

That answers it, thanks Allen!
I definitely have the ordinary toilet valve (barb is not plugged, water is coming out the barb+tube).
The Pentair T29 looks practically identical to what I have, so I'll go with that.

 

[proavia]

I've used the Fluidmaster 400 toilet valve in my autofill for years.
I tie a knot in the bowl filler tube before installing on the float valve.
Their newer 400H model has a valve to control the flow to the bowl filler tube or to shut it off completely.

The original valve was a Korky and lasted 5 years. The Fluidmaster valves seem to last quite a bit longer in my autofill.

Living in AZ, with our low humidity and high evaporation rate, the autofill is on more than it's off.

 

[Dirk]

That is a PoolMiser. You can contact them for a replacement part. (They would know.) Others have accurately explained the difference between the correct part and a toilet valve. I have a three-pack of toilet valves from Lowes, that I had planned to use to replace my flakey valve, but did the following instead.

I popped off the cap and cleaned out the debris (mostly small stones) and it's been working ever since, so I haven't tried my toilet valves yet.

I'm on my second one, which I bought from poolmiser.com. I think I fouled the first one (that came with the pool when I bought the house) working on the plumbing upstream, and just replaced it before I figured out how to clean them. And the first one was subjected to very hard water for about six years, the second one gets its water from my water softener, so I expect it'll last a good while (or at least not succumb to calcium build up as fast). I'll use the toilet valves some day, and just figure out how to plug the filler tube spout with something.

All the other ideas mentioned above are just as good.

 

[ramblinwreck001]

Just to close out this thread, picked up the Fluidmaster 400H mentioned by @proavia because it was half the cost of the pool-specific model and I could get it quickly. I was able to get it installed and appears to be working correctly. I'll report back here if I experience any premature failure since this is the ordinary toilet model..

@Dirk thanks for the head's up on cleaning out under the cap, I've done that for my Fluidmaster 400s in the house (toilets), and plan to make that part of regular maintenance for this auto-fill device. In this case, the issue with the old autofill wasn't the cap/seal, but rather the float mechanism somehow getting stuck in the OFF position (better OFF than ON, I guess..). Probably could have disassembled and cleaned it and got it working again but I wasn't sure how old this device was so I just replaced it with the 400H for $15. So far so good.

 

[Dirk]

Probably could have disassembled and cleaned it and got it working again but I wasn't sure how old this device was so I just replaced it with the 400H for $15. So far so good.

I think I bought three for $18 or something like that. Hardly worth messing with an old one! I only did so because I was short on free time and cleaned it out to prolong its life a bit longer until I could replace it. But it's been working perfectly since, so I've continued to stall on the new one.

My first one (since replaced) did get stuck on once. I vowed to replace it once a year, as sort of a preemptive repair. But I never put that into practice. I'm also a bit cautious about messing with the auto-fill well. The valves are cheap, but if I cross-thread the well... I'm screwed. So I don't want to replace them too often for that reason. I bought three at a time because the plan was to get one in, then subsequent replacements could leave the base in place, without taking it out of the well, and then just replace the top half. Again, haven't crossed that bridge yet, but that is the plan, if I can make it work.

Edit: see posts #15 and #16 below.

 

[ramblinwreck001]

My auto-fill struggles continue. I got the Fluidmaster 400H installed but it is not working right. Once the float gets low enough to turn it on the fill valve, it cycles ON-OFF-ON-OFF repeatedly, rather than filling constantly like the old one did.

Short video of problem here.

The equalizer line to the pool is not blocked or restricted as far as I can tell. My assumption is that the "refill rate" of this fill valve is simply too high/fast, causing the sump to fill faster than the equalizer line can drain the new fill water back to the pool. Never had this issue with the previous autofill.

Has anyone ever seen this and is there any solution besides a different fill valve..? Seems like I want a "slow fill" valve, or at least slower than this one.

EDIT: Turning the blue knob has no effect on the problem. It simply controls the proportion of the available water which gets diverted to the small tube. I've tried it on several settings and the problem persists in all cases.

 

[proavia]

My autofill came with a restrictive washer that fits under the fill valve.
This washer help prevent the on/off cycling you are experiencing.

Pentair A&A QuikWater Leveler Restrictor Seal #518539

Pentair A&A QuikWater Leveler Restrictor Seal #518539, A&A QuikWater Leveler Restrictor Seal #518539. Now owned by Pentair

www.poolvacparts.com

 

[ramblinwreck001]

Thanks @proavia. That does look like it would solve my problem. Just to confirm, that one fits the Fluidmaster style fill valves (my understanding is the Pentair part actually uses a Fluidmaster fill valve)?
Interestingly my old fill valve didn't have this either, but it was also an ordinary toilet valve.
Maybe this restrictor plate is the critical difference between the pool vs toilet fill valves.

 

[proavia]

It doesn't fit the valve itself. It fits inside the fitting the valve screws into - in the base of the autofill itself.

 

[ramblinwreck001]

OK, that isn't going to work in my Poolmiser sump. Looking at this video you shared in a different thread, it looks like that seal expects to sit inside a riser/boss which does not exist in my Poolmiser sump. I just have a threaded hole in the bottom of the sump to accept the fill valve threads, there's nowhere for me to install this restrictor seal. The Poomiser instructions do not call for any such restrictor seal, either.

I did confirm that turning down the hose spigot to a trickle does solve the issue (confirming that high fill rate is root cause), but that seems to create a bunch of noise in the house so that's not a long term solution.

I think I will have to resort to buying to the Poolmiser specific fill valve, I do notice the bottom of the fill valve is a slightly different design than what I have, so I wonder if this has some form of built-in restriction. The old fill valve also has the slightly different design, which has me thinking that might have been an original Poolmiser part with a Kohler replacement cap on it (instead of being a Kohler part altogether).

 

[ramblinwreck001]

Here's a product photo of the Poolmiser specific RP-402 valve. The red arrow points to a hard plastic section which does not exist on the replacement Fluidmaster I bought, and does not appear on any of the normal toilet fill vavles. The fill valve I replaced did in fact have this. I wonder if there's a flow restrictor built-in to this part.

 

[Dirk]

I don't know about this problem, and have het to try a generic toilet valve in my PoolMiser. I replaced my valve with one purchased directly from PoolMiser, so maybe that's how I skipped this issue (but will eventually run into it when I try my Lowes toilet valves).

Anywho, you might try leaving the PoolMiser valve bottom in the PoolMiser well, and then see if the top half of the new generic toilet valve will connect to it.

 

[Dirk]

You got me curious, so I ran out to the garage to check. Lowe's toilet valve base on left, original PoolMiser valve base on right. (Both are FluidMaster.)



Inside the bases: Lowes on left, PoolMiser on right.




The restrictor on the Lowe's valve base pulls out. The PoolMiser restrictor/filter does not. It looks to me the Lowe's restrictor is going to restrict at least as well as the PoolMiser restrictor/filter did.



Do you have anything like either in the base of your valve?

 

[Dirk]

Oh, and the two bases are completely interchangeable. If the Lowes valve base doesn't work, I can reuse the PoolMiser base. Either top half fits on either base.

Come to think of it, as I mentioned, I probably won't even unscrew the old base out, I'll use the new Lowes top half on the original base, if I ever get around to swapping it in.

 

[1poolman1]

Oh, and the two bases are completely interchangeable. If the Lowes valve base doesn't work, I can reuse the PoolMiser base. Either top half fits on either base.

Come to think of it, as I mentioned, I probably won't even unscrew the old base out, I'll use the new Lowes top half on the original base, if I ever get around to swapping it in.

That's what I have done for customers for years. You can leave the tank fill tube on as well.

 

[Dirk]

You can leave the tank fill tube on as well.

What do you do with that? Just point it down into the water? Or close it off somehow?

 

[1poolman1]

Point it down. If it won't stay pointed down it usually doesn't hurt anything. You can also pinch it off with a piece of copper wire or a zip tie. I have always carried a bag of 100 (Harbor Freight). Some of the older valves actually came with a small rubber cap that would go over that port, but I haven't seen that in a long time.

 

[Dirk]

Point it down. If it won't stay pointed down it usually doesn't hurt anything. You can also pinch it off with a piece of copper wire or a zip tie. I have always carried a bag of 100 (Harbor Freight). Some of the older valves actually came with a small rubber cap that would go over that port, but I haven't seen that in a long time.

OK, thanks. Kinking it and clamping the kink was the best I had come up with so far. Sounds like that'll work just fine.