Secondary systems for health concerns...

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prophet224

Member
Apr 8, 2025
9
Wilmington, NC
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
Ok, I *do* understand that secondaries aren't recommended. I'm going to lay out what's happening and hope the experts here can help me clear up my knowledge, with the understanding that our situation may be coming from a different angle than others.
I understand there are limitations to ozone, and if minerals work we don't care if they stain. We have a specific cancer-related use case I'm trying to get a feel for. Many thanks in advance!

Background
So, they found ovarian cancer in my wife when they did a C-section. She's doing great, and our little girl is 2 1/2 years old now. However, my wife and her family have a genetic pre-disposition towards cancer and we can't test my daughter until she's 16 (really annoying rule).

Our understanding is that chlorine disinfection byproducts are associated with a ton of issues, including higher incidence of cancer. I do realize there are many ways to reduce these byproducts, and our pool is outdoors which already mitigates some. We also do recognize that a non-sanitary pool is its own (and immediate) problem.

Goal
Reduce DBPs as much as possible, likely through reduction in chlorine use.

Pool
We have a ~32/16 in ground pool in coastal Carolina. It has a SWG, which has been great.
We also have a skimmer and bottom filter, and 3 returns.

Me
I had a regular salt pool growing up, with DE filter. I'm not a pool professional but I'm at least not new.
I've also been testing for microbes (mostly in the Chesapeake bay region) since 8th grade and my dad's a microbiologist so I can always get him to help test if needed. :)

Additional Discussion
I know there can be other issues with metals in pools, but from the standpoint of killing algae, bacteria, protozoa, and parasites, silver seems to be pretty effective and does have a residual, though time to kill varies of course from chlorine.

This will probably sound nuts here, but I started by testing PoolRx (silver/copper) drop-ins. I was amazed at the water clarity change just from that, with chlorine turned to zero. I did not do biological testing at this point.

With the understanding that we are trying to reduce exposure to cancer-causing chemicals of any kind, does that shift the narrative of whether ions/ozone/SWG makes sense or works?

For instance, if the filter is on 24/7, it is continuously going through an ozone or AOP chamber (just to break down compounds in the water), the pool has silver/zinc/copper ions, and we crank the SWG higher if we have any higher numbers of people there, what are the thoughts for this use case?
 
prophet224 said:
Ok, I *do* understand that secondaries aren't recommended. I'm going to lay out what's happening and hope the experts here can help me clear up my knowledge, with the understanding that our situation may be coming from a different angle than others.
I understand there are limitations to ozone, and if minerals work we don't care if they stain. We have a specific cancer-related use case I'm trying to get a feel for. Many thanks in advance!

Background
So, they found ovarian cancer in my wife when they did a C-section. She's doing great, and our little girl is 2 1/2 years old now. However, my wife and her family have a genetic pre-disposition towards cancer and we can't test my daughter until she's 16 (really annoying rule).

Our understanding is that chlorine disinfection byproducts are associated with a ton of issues, including higher incidence of cancer. I do realize there are many ways to reduce these byproducts, and our pool is outdoors which already mitigates some. We also do recognize that a non-sanitary pool is its own (and immediate) problem.

Goal
Reduce DBPs as much as possible, likely through reduction in chlorine use.

Pool
We have a ~32/16 in ground pool in coastal Carolina. It has a SWG, which has been great.
We also have a skimmer and bottom filter, and 3 returns.

Me
I had a regular salt pool growing up, with DE filter. I'm not a pool professional but I'm at least not new.
I've also been testing for microbes (mostly in the Chesapeake bay region) since 8th grade and my dad's a microbiologist so I can always get him to help test if needed. :)

Additional Discussion
I know there can be other issues with metals in pools, but from the standpoint of killing algae, bacteria, protozoa, and parasites, silver seems to be pretty effective and does have a residual, though time to kill varies of course from chlorine.

This will probably sound nuts here, but I started by testing PoolRx (silver/copper) drop-ins. I was amazed at the water clarity change just from that, with chlorine turned to zero. I did not do biological testing at this point.

With the understanding that we are trying to reduce exposure to cancer-causing chemicals of any kind, does that shift the narrative of whether ions/ozone/SWG makes sense or works?

For instance, if the filter is on 24/7, it is continuously going through an ozone or AOP chamber (just to break down compounds in the water), the pool has silver/zinc/copper ions, and we crank the SWG higher if we have any higher numbers of people there, what are the thoughts for this use case?
Click to expand...
Welcome to TFP!

While we aren’t qualified to determine whether there is a cancer risk in any scenario, there are some things we do know:

Mineral sanitizers do not work to make water safe from pathogens. They can help with algae, but the kill time is far too long for them to be effective sanitizers.

The same chlorine and chlorine sanitation byproducts are both added to tap water at about the same levels as they exist in pool water with no evidence of health risks.

If your water wasn’t clear before the PoolRx, you weren’t maintaining your water chemistry properly. A properly maintained chlorine pool is absolutely crystal clear.
 
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prophet224 said:
Our understanding is that chlorine disinfection byproducts are associated with a ton of issues, including higher incidence of cancer.
Click to expand...
What proof do you have about the levels of disinfection byproducts in your pool?

What types of actual exposure is each person being subjected to?

What evidence do you have that supports any causation of any type of cancer related to the level of disinfection byproducts in your pool and your exposure to those disinfection byproducts?
 
For a high use indoor commercial pool, I think that there are real concerns about exposure to disinfection byproducts as well as bacteria and other health risks.

For a low use, outdoor residential pool with adequate chlorine levels, I think that the risks are negligible.

This is just my unqualified personal opinion.

In any case, we are not doctors and we are not qualified to give any type of medical advice.

Discuss these issues with your doctors and rely on their professional expertise.
 
prophet224 said:
Our understanding is that chlorine disinfection byproducts are associated with a ton of issues, including higher incidence of cancer
Click to expand...
224,

What a total load of Bull Feathers!!!

Sorry about your wife's medial issue, but you need to start be realistic.. There are 1,000 ways to die every day, but that does not stop us from driving cars, flying planes, walking on sidewalks climbing ladders, or stairs, etc, etc, etc..

Sigh!!

Jim R.
 
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JamesW said:
What proof do you have about the levels of disinfection byproducts in your pool?

What types of actual exposure is each person being subjected to?

What evidence do you have that supports any causation of any type of cancer related to the level of disinfection byproducts in your pool and your exposure to those disinfection byproducts?
Click to expand...

Those are some of the problems - you *can* test for chloramines but it changes a lot. How much is each person being exposed? Also tough to tell - and when you are experiencing an active health issue you want 'as little exposure as possible'. If there's a person in the pool, there's *some* level of exposure, however small. That said, I'm not saying I necessarily think that's a risky exposure, but we are trying to minimize as much as possible, where lowest expense is not the primary goal.

For evidence, this is the easy one:
DBPs are mutagenic:

Disinfection Byproducts in Chlorinated or Brominated Swimming Pools and Spas: Role of Brominated DBPs and Association with Mutagenicity - PMC

Although the health benefits of swimming are well-documented, health effects such as asthma and bladder cancer are linked to disinfection by-products (DBPs) in pool water. DBPs are formed from the reaction of disinfectants such as chlorine (Cl) or ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

DBPs are dangerous, swimming is good, find ways to lower your exposure:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Health impact of disinfection by-products in swimming pools - PubMed

This article is focused on the epidemiological evidence on the health impacts related to disinfection by-products (DBPs) in swimming pools, which is a chemical hazard generated as an undesired consequence to reduce the microbial pathogens. Specific DBPs are carcinogenic, fetotoxic and/or...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

DBPs are dangerous, inhalation *seems* like the most common way, but absorption is more important than we thought:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Health risk of swimming pool disinfection by-products: a regulatory perspective - PubMed

While disinfection of swimming pools is indispensable for microbiological safety, it may lead to the formation of disinfection by-products. Most studies agree that inhalation exposure is the predominant pathway of the associated health risks, but assumptions are based on concentrations measured...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

DBPs cause cancer: (this one is older but also kind of blunt)
www.sciencedaily.com

Chemicals in indoor swimming pools may increase cancer risk

Swimming in indoor chlorinated pools may induce genotoxicity (DNA damage that may lead to cancer) as well as respiratory effects, but the positive health effects of swimming can be maintained by reducing pool levels of the chemicals behind these potential health risks, according to a new study.
www.sciencedaily.com
 
Jimrahbe said:
224,

What a total load of Bull Feathers!!!

Sorry about your wife's medial issue, but you need to start be realistic.. There are 1,000 ways to die every day, but that does not stop us from driving cars, flying planes, walking on sidewalks climbing ladders, or stairs, etc, etc, etc..

Sigh!!

Jim R.
Click to expand...
There are, but if you had an 80% predisposition to die from driving your car, would you still do it? You don't know the whole situation and aren't in it, so this isn't a terribly useful or kind answer to a serious question.

See the above response for just the beginning of research on the issue. Not sure how tons of clear research to the mutagenic properties of DBPs is 'bull feathers' or why your cavalier attitude needs to be applied to me or my family.

Wow, what an ignorant response in what looked like an otherwise friendly and helpful site.
 
hexabc said:
"Our understanding is that chlorine disinfection byproducts are associated with a ton of issues, including higher incidence of cancer."

Aren't those concerns about drinking chlorinated water?
Click to expand...
Both drinking water and pools. It's one of the reasons silver is being investigated as a supplement for drinking water purification as well, and is approved for use in certain drinking water uses already.

At the end of the day, I'm just trying to find a way to make things as safe as possible.
 
JamesW said:
For a high use indoor commercial pool, I think that there are real concerns about exposure to disinfection byproducts as well as bacteria and other health risks.

For a low use, outdoor residential pool with adequate chlorine levels, I think that the risks are negligible.

This is just my unqualified personal opinion.

In any case, we are not doctors and we are not qualified to give any type of medical advice.

Discuss these issues with your doctors and rely on their professional expertise.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I totally get the doctor thing, and not looking for medical advice, but definitely wise. I just included the other items for context - a lot of threads seem to discuss how to make it as clean, cheap, and sustainable as possible where I'm trying to find an overlap of less toxic solutions.

Heck, even adding peroxide or something like that. I don't know, I just keep seeing that silver in conjunction with chlorine is much more effective than chlorine or silver alone, and I like the idea of keeping it low and then being able to bring it up if there are more people in the pool...
 

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In my opinion, the alternative methods are not safer and we really do not advocate those methods.

You will not find much support here for those alternative methods like copper and silver.
 
prophet224 said:
There are, but if you had an 80% predisposition to die from driving your car, would you still do it?
Click to expand...
Are you saying that there is an 80% chance you will die in your pool due to exposure to disinfection byproducts?

The studies are related to indoor, high use commercial public pools that are not properly maintained and not low use, outdoor, residential pools.

There are many indoor, high use commercial public pools that have horrible pool chemistry and are not safe to swim in.

This site is mostly about low use, outdoor, residential pools.

Indoor, high use commercial public pools can be properly maintained, but it is expensive and complicated.

If you go to an indoor, high use commercial public pools and it is stinky and cloudy, do not use it.

Chemicals in indoor swimming pools may increase cancer risk
Date:
September 14, 2010
Source:
Environmental Health Perspectives (NIEHS)
Summary:
Swimming in indoor chlorinated pools may induce genotoxicity (DNA damage that may lead to cancer) as well as respiratory effects, but the positive health effects of swimming can be maintained by reducing pool levels of the chemicals behind these potential health risks, according to a new study.
Click to expand...

In any case, your premise that you need to use copper, silver etc. for your pool is not going to get support here.

If you really feel like those are methods that you need to try, then maybe Facebook or other sites will be better for you.
 
There is more common-sense pool knowledge on this forum than there is on the entirety of the internet. Getting mixed information on a situation you THINK exists is foolhardy. While you mean well and have good intentions for your quest, you won't find a better knowledgebase for pool chemistry than you will on this site. Listen to what the pros are telling you. Pool water won't cause cancer and is not toxic. It's not like we espouse putting fluoride in the water (which isn't bad either.)
 
JohnT said:
Welcome to TFP!

While we aren’t qualified to determine whether there is a cancer risk in any scenario, there are some things we do know:

Mineral sanitizers do not work to make water safe from pathogens. They can help with algae, but the kill time is far too long for them to be effective sanitizers.

The same chlorine and chlorine sanitation byproducts are both added to tap water at about the same levels as they exist in pool water with no evidence of health risks.

If your water wasn’t clear before the PoolRx, you weren’t maintaining your water chemistry properly. A properly maintained chlorine pool is absolutely crystal clear.
Click to expand...
Thank you! Definitely not asking anyone to give medical advice, but I do appreciate the disinfection/sanitation experience?

So ozone and such only addresses water going through the filter, so no residual, silver/copper ions aren't helping with pathogens.

In drinking water the recommended is up to 4ppm, where pool water is... 3-5ppm, I think? So I see that - pretty close. I think the other concern is bathing in it at the same time, but I see what you are saying.

As for the PoolRx thing, yes, that was at the start of the season after 'winter' and I had definitely let it go, so that was on me.

This was talking about using silver to kill cryptosporidium when there's a crypto incident because chlorine isn't so good at that:

And this from the CDC mentions using ozone to help reduce the oocyte load (at the bottom):

It seems like there's a place for these secondaries, though I guess these are more of an issue for commercial installations.

I see that chlorine kills e. coli in < 1minute while silver at 2ppm takes around 30 minutes.
But at the same time cryptosporidium is on the order of days for chlorine and similar for silver, but a few hours for the two together.

There's a lot going on here.
 
JamesW said:
Are you saying that there is an 80% chance you will die in your pool due to exposure to disinfection byproducts?

The studies are related to indoor, high use commercial public pools that are not properly maintained and not low use, outdoor, residential pools.

There are many indoor, high use commercial public pools that have horrible pool chemistry and are not safe to swim in.

This site is mostly about low use, outdoor, residential pools.

Indoor, high use commercial public pools can be properly maintained, but it is expensive and complicated.

If you go to an indoor, high use commercial public pools and it is stinky and cloudy, do not use it.



In any case, your premise that you need to use copper, silver etc. for your pool is not going to get support here.

If you really feel like those are methods that you need to try, then maybe Facebook or other sites will be better for you.
Click to expand...
My 80% comment had to do with my wife's genetic risks of cancer and recurrence. The message was just unnecessary. :(

My premise is more "is there a way to reduce the chlorine load?" The copper/silver/peroxide/ozone/AOP are just things that have come up in research as possibilities.

I'm definitely not looking for a rubber stamp, but there clearly are DBP issues in some cases (especially indoor and poorly maintained commercial or high-use pools) and I'm trying to see if there are things that can reduce that DBP load, which obviously includes 'keep it clean', 'wash before getting in', etc.

It just seems like the byproducts of peroxide are less dangerous than chlorine, or ozone systems do break down whatever goes through them so that would reduce the materials that chlorine would have to act on.
 
TinFoilHat said:
There is more common-sense pool knowledge on this forum than there is on the entirety of the internet. Getting mixed information on a situation you THINK exists is foolhardy. While you mean well and have good intentions for your quest, you won't find a better knowledgebase for pool chemistry than you will on this site. Listen to what the pros are telling you. Pool water won't cause cancer and is not toxic. It's not like we espouse putting fluoride in the water (which isn't bad either.)
Click to expand...
LOL I like your username. :) Funny you mention the fluoride thing too. My wife has bought into that one, but yeah, while you can have too much of anything, this is another case of misunderstandings gone wild and becoming conspiracy theories.

That said, the research is very clear that byproducts of disinfection can be carcinogenic, but just like car fumes are too, if you aren't constantly exposed in high doses it doesn't hit the 'cutoff line' if you will to actually impact your health.

One of the best things about the forum and the chemistry is that keeping the chemistry correct and the pool clean = less byproducts.

That said, keeping leaves, branches, and other matter out of this pool (just based on the wind here and where we are located) would be a full time job. :(
 
prophet224 said:
There's a lot going on here.
Click to expand...
That's the problem. There's alot going on everywhere. If you look hard enough you can find studies to fit whatever narrative you like.

As laypeople, none of us will 'crack the code', or even understand enough of the parameters to see why study X doesn't apply to us. We certainly aren't connecting the dots between thousands and thousands of studies on any one topic. They won't footnote it that it got laughed out of peer review either, it's just published for all to read. The best you can hope for is finding somebody else talking about it being laughed out of peer review. Or why it is true but not in the way it looks.

Unless we all go fully off grid with no WIfi, electronic devices, microwave ovens, gas stoves etc etc etc, we will be exposed to far more than we comprehend. And if we did we'd be sucking in campfire smoke and getting sunburns and here we go again. :)
 
Newdude said:
That's the problem. There's alot going on everywhere. If you look hard enough you can find studies to fit whatever narrative you like.
Click to expand...
And unfortunately lots of people set to make $ over people's fears. I totally get your fears, but please take everything you see and hear with a grain of salt, especially if someone is financially motivated to stoke those fears and tell you what you want to hear.

My mom had ovarian cancer, so I really get your situation. Her doctor told her the most common trigger was asbestos, generally introduced through baby powder which is mined in the same mines where you get asbestos so its easy to cross-contaminate. Could it be that... maybe, or our pool, or fluoride, or food dyes, thousands of other things, none of the above, or all of the above. Luckily for me and her, she is an ovarian cancer survivor and has been cancer-free for 30 years.

My point in all of this is that I would not be so quick to dismiss something like chlorine which has thousands of independent studies. You cant say the same about silver/metals, even if people telling you that to sell you a "safer" mousetrap say so. Until then, give me the proven solution that hundreds of millions of people swim in, bathe in, and ingest every single year and have done so for the past 50+ years.
 
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JJ_Tex said:
And unfortunately lots of people set to make $ over people's fears. I totally get your fears, but please take everything you see and hear with a grain of salt, especially if someone is financially motivated to stoke those fears and tell you what you want to hear.

My mom had ovarian cancer, so I really get your situation. Her doctor told her the most common trigger was asbestos, generally introduced through baby powder which is mined in the same mines where you get asbestos so its easy to cross-contaminate. Could it be that... maybe, or our pool, or fluoride, or food dyes, thousands of other things, none of the above, or all of the above. Luckily for me and her, she is an ovarian cancer survivor and has been cancer-free for 30 years.

My point in all of this is that I would not be so quick to dismiss something like chlorine which has thousands of independent studies. You cant say the same about silver/metals, even if people telling you that to sell you a "safer" mousetrap say so. Until then, give me the proven solution that hundreds of millions of people swim in, bathe in, and ingest every single year and have done so for the past 50+ years.
Click to expand...
Wow! First of all congratulations to your mom and your family that she is a survivor and cancer-free so long. That is amazing and wonderful and every story like that helps give us more hope.

As far as the chlorine vs other newer methods - that's a great point. There's definitely a lot of fearmongering out there about everything from chlorine to mold to how you build your house and EMF and... ugh. The list goes on and on.

So straight fact - chlorine is probably the most researched pool chemical, whereas anything and everything else (at least the newer things like silver/copper/AOP, etc.) are all super-new, and even if some independent places sometimes suggest them for some uses, at the end of the day they don't have the backing that chlorine does.

Thank you, that was really, really helpful!
 
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