0 CYA and 0 FC. Need advise

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Notice how much wiggle room you have between target and SLAM. Then notice how little wiggle room is below target. There's not even a days worth in the summer, and maybe not even an afternoons worth.

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When given the choice, aim high and we will never ever discuss your swamp again.

You can also use your recent knowledge to hack the system. Say. You've been losing 3 FC a day. Dose +7 and you can likely skip the in between day. (Proven with testing as always). But once you prove the middle day holds fine, you just doubled your productivity.

Adjust dose as necessary with the golden rule in mind.
 
View attachment 569565


Notice how much wiggle room you have between target and SLAM. Then notice how little wiggle room is below target. There's not even a days worth in the summer, and maybe not even an afternoons worth.

View attachment 569566

When given the choice, aim high and we will never ever discuss your swamp again.

You can also use your recent knowledge to hack the system. Say. You've been losing 3 FC a day. Dose +7 and you can likely skip the in between day. (Proven with testing as always). But once you prove the middle day holds fine, you just doubled your productivity.

Adjust dose as necessary with the golden rule in mind.
Love this!! Thank you. Such great info
 
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ROFL 🤣 I caught the “clear” after I sent the reply. Sorry I’m a little slow with puns sometimes- my kids always make fun of me.

I always like to run my chlorine a little above recommended, so it will be no problem for me. And now with my own kit, I’ll be checking it often.

That’s the takeaway I’m getting anyway… to run it a little above recommended to adapt for FC loss in hot summer months and to stay on top of keeping algae away.
I’d highly recommend you increasing your CYA though to at least 50ppm. It’s a much more comfortable level for maintenance. And it’s relatively easy. My husband has two tube socks he uses. He places a full one with granular CYA knotted at the top into the skimmer and waits about 15 minutes. Then he enjoys our back yard and kicking his feet in the water while he squishes out the softened CYA into the skimmer until the sock is empty. Then he does the other. CYA is increased pretty fast this way too.
 
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I’d highly recommend you increasing your CYA though to at least 50ppm. It’s a much more comfortable level for maintenance. And it’s relatively easy. My husband has two tube socks he uses. He places a full one with granular CYA knotted at the top into the skimmer and waits about 15 minutes. Then he enjoys our back yard and kicking his feet in the water while he squishes out the softened CYA into the skimmer until the sock is empty. Then he does the other. CYA is increased pretty fast this way too.
I’ve tried the sock in the skimmer and found that the sock in front of the return dissolves much faster. I thought CYA should be at 30 or 40. I just added CYA a couple of days ago, so I’m giving it til Saturday to see what it’s at. I’d rather increase it slowly.
 
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I thought CYA should be at 30 or 40
50 is the sweet spot but if it goes swampy, SLAM is 20 instead of 12. It burns off as a %, so daily UV loss increases as FC goes up. It's mostly unnoticeable under 10 but becomes really noticeable at 20+.

We recommend everyone start at 30 for liquid chlorine and add 10 and road test it if the FC doesn't hold when it gets warmer. In the hot climates, some need 50, but I imagine most don't in Illinois.
 
I’d highly recommend you increasing your CYA though to at least 50ppm. It’s a much more comfortable level for maintenance. And it’s relatively easy. My husband has two tube socks he uses. He places a full one with granular CYA knotted at the top into the skimmer and waits about 15 minutes. Then he enjoys our back yard and kicking his feet in the water while he squishes out the softened CYA into the skimmer until the sock is empty. Then he does the other. CYA is increased pretty fast this way too.
But adding CYA through the skimmer is not recommended from the point it can take up a week to fully be accounted for as it makes its way through the filter media and then if you forget and backwash too soon you lose whatever was still in the filter.
 
Maybe one last point on chemistry. It takes usually some time to get your head around the higher FC levels we recommend here, so a little background on that.

When adding chlorine to water you end up with hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ion. Without any CYA in the water, this is what shows up as FC in the chlorine test. It is the hypochlorous acid part that we are interested in, this is what kills bacteria and algae, and also what makes chlorinated water feel "harsh" and wears out swim suits over time. We also like to call this "active" chlorine.

When you add CYA, things change a bit. About 95% of the chlorine is now attached to CYA. The good thing about that is that it is protected from UV light there, which is why we use it in the first place. The downside is that chlorine that's attached to CYA has no more algae/bacteria killing powers. Unfortunately, it still shows up as FC in the test. What needs to be done is to increase FC to make sure that there is enough active chlorine. Turns out that same ratios of FC/CYA contain same amounts of active chlorine. That means when doubling CYA, you also need to double FC.

To give you some numbers:

SLAM FC (for example FC 12 for CYA 30, or FC 24 for CYA 60) contains the same amount of active chlorine as FC 0.64 without any CYA in the water.

That's right, FC 0.64 is enough to SLAM a pool without CYA. Problem with that is that you'd lose most of that FC to UV in no-time, rather than getting it to work on algae.

The target FC ranges in our recommended FC/CYA Levels, are equivalent to something like FC 0.1 to 0.15 without CYA.

This is for example reflected in codes for public pools in Europe, where FC (without CYA) is limited to 0.6. This gives a great swimming experience, but you need professional equipment to maintain these levels, that would not work in a residential backyard pool.

If used properly, CYA does the magic in our backyard pools. It protects chlorine from FC and provides a reservoir of chlorine without the water being aggressive. As your active chlorine goes down from UV, killing bacteria and algae, or doing its job on the stuff that swimmers leave behind, more active chlorine gets released from CYA.

Chlorine is not locked into the CYA, that's not how chemistry works (so delete terms like "chlorine lock" that you may have heard from pool stores from your vocabulary). There is always an equilibrium, at given levels of FC, CYA and pH you have well defined levels of active chlorine and chlorine attached to CYA. If you suddenly remove all of the active chlorine (let's say due to kids doing what kids do in water), then more active chlorine gets released from the "reservoir" of chlorinated CYA until everything is back in equilibrium - this happens to our "eyes" pretty much instantaneously.

Also turns out that this magic includes that with CYA the active chlorine levels are not very dependant on pH (without CYA they are, most of what shows up as FC would be hypochlorite ion at high pH which is far less powerfull than hypochlorous acid - that is where the urge from pool stores to always bring pH down to 7.2 comes from). So, with CYA in the water it is absolutely fine to maintain pH more around 7.8 to 8.0, which will (in combination with TA around 70ish) lead to a much more stable pH without having to add acid so often.

All of these chlorine / CYA equilibrium thingies have been first published in science journals in the late 1960ies. Unfortunately, the pool industry has decided to widely ignore that for decades.

I hope I didn't dive too deep here, but I wanted to give you some reassurance that we are not just making these things up. We are just applying scientific learnings to pool care.
 
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Maybe one last point on chemistry. It takes usually some time to get your head around the higher FC levels we recommend here, so a little background on that.

When adding chlorine to water you end up with hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ion. Without any CYA in the water, this is what shows up as FC in the chlorine test. It is the hypochlorous acid part that we are interested in, this is what kills bacteria and algae, and also what makes chlorinated water feel "harsh" and wears out swim suits over time. We also like to call this "active" chlorine.

When you add CYA, things change a bit. About 95% of the chlorine is now attached to CYA. The good thing about that is that it is protected from UV light there, which is why we use it in the first place. The downside is that chlorine that's attached to CYA has no more algae/bacteria killing powers. Unfortunately, it still shows up as FC in the test. What needs to be done is to increase FC to make sure that there is enough active chlorine. Turns out that same ratios of FC/CYA contain same amounts of active chlorine. That means when doubling CYA, you also need to double FC.

To give you some numbers:

SLAM FC (for example FC 12 for CYA 30, or FC 24 for CYA 60) contain the same amount of active chlorine than FC 0.64 without any CYA in the water.

That's right, FC 0.64 is enough to SLAM a pool without CYA. Problem with that is that you'd lose most of that FC to UV in no-time, rather than getting it to work on algae.

The target FC ranges in our recommended FC/CYA Levels, are equivalent to something like FC 0.1 to 0.15 without CYA.

This is for example reflected in codes for public pools in Europe, where FC (without CYA) is limited to 0.6. This gives a great swimming experience, but you need professional equipment to maintain these levels, that would not work in a residential backyard pool.

If used properly, CYA does the magic in our backyard pools. It protects chlorine from FC and provides a reservoir of chlorine without the water being aggressive. As your active chlorine goes down from UV, killing bacteria and algae, or doing its job on the stuff that swimmers leave behind, more active chlorine gets released from CYA.

Chlorine is not locked into the CYA, that's not how chemistry works (so delete terms like "chlorine lock" that you may have heard from pool stores from your vocabulary). There is always an equilibrium, at given levels of FC, CYA and pH you have well defined levels of active chlorine and chlorine attached to CYA. If you suddenly remove all of the active chlorine (let's say due to kids doing what kids do in water), then more active chlorine gets released from the "reservoir" of chlorinated CYA until everything is back in equilibrium - this happens to our "eyes" pretty much instantaneously.

Also turns out that this magic includes that with CYA the active chlorine levels are not very dependant on pH (without CYA they are, most of what shows up as FC would be hypochlorite ion at high pH which is far less powerfull than hypochlorous acid - that is where the urge from pool stores to always bring pH down to 7.2 comes from). So, with CYA in the water it is absolutely fine to maintain pH more around 7.8 to 8.0, which will (in combination with TA around 70ish) lead to a much more stable pH without having to add acid so often.

All of these chlorine / CYA equilibrium thingies have been first published in science journals in the late 1960ies. Unfortunately, the pool industry has decided to widely ignore that for decades.

I hope I didn't dive too deep here, but I wanted to give you some reassurance that we are not just making these things up. We are just applying scientific learnings to pool care.
That was actually very informative and really helps me to understand how it all works together. Thank you!

For 7 pool seasons, I’ve just been told by pool stores to do this or do that, without any explanation as to why. And I just followed the directions, seeing as they are in the industry and knew better than me. Well 7 yrs of just dumping so much in the pool, it kind of just “exploded” in a sense. It’s like filling a water ballon, it only holds so much water before bursting. And my pool took all it could for yrs before saying “enough” by letting ammonia take over.

It was a blessing in disguise- I’m starting with a fresh slate. I had CYA of 150 for 4 yrs straight. It’s no wonder the chlorine level of 5 or 6 wasn’t killing anything. My water was always crystal clear and levels of PH and alkalinity were always in check. Never had a strong chlorine smell, hair or swim suites never smelled like chlorine. But we used to get these water bugs that would swim around When I kept the water at 5-6 FC they’d go away. Except for last summer, no matter how high I kept chlorine, they were always still in the pool. I kind of knew something was wrong in my gut and was apprehensive about swimming with my face in the water all season. I think it was the start of the bubble bursting, so to speak.

And here we are today. With the help of this site and all of you, I have such a better understanding of how all of these chemicals work together and the ranges they should be in.
 
have such a better understanding of how all of these chemicals work together and the ranges they should be
Learned more in 3 weeks.......... (y)



But we used to get these water bugs that would swim around When I kept the water at 5-6 FC they’d go away. Except for last summer, no matter how high I kept chlorine, they were always still in the pool.
I have bugs that don't care about the FC. Heck. I have 15 kinds of bugs that don't care, living next to a farm. And my pool runs HOT.
 
I’ve tried the sock in the skimmer and found that the sock in front of the return dissolves much faster. I thought CYA should be at 30 or 40. I just added CYA a couple of days ago, so I’m giving it til Saturday to see what it’s at. I’d rather increase it slowly.
Oh for some reason our skimmer sucks water fast so it’s like a little whirlpool in there. 😂
 

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But adding CYA through the skimmer is not recommended from the point it can take up a week to fully be accounted for as it makes its way through the filter media and then if you forget and backwash too soon you lose whatever was still in the filter.
See I disagree just because of what we experienced the past 13 years. Our CYA readings increase within hours of doing this. Always by the very next day, but mostly the same day. I don’t have DE in my sand filter though so I wonder if that interferes with some pools? We also backwash right before adding CYA.
 
50 is the sweet spot but if it goes swampy, SLAM is 20 instead of 12. It burns off as a %, so daily UV loss increases as FC goes up. It's mostly unnoticeable under 10 but becomes really noticeable at 20+.

We recommend everyone start at 30 for liquid chlorine and add 10 and road test it if the FC doesn't hold when it gets warmer. In the hot climates, some need 50, but I imagine most don't in Illinois.
I live in northern Illinois and anything 40 ppm or less we found more cumbersome to maintain. We stay between 50-70 and have not had a single swampy episode in 13 years, not even a trace of algae. We haven’t had to do any slamming the rest of the season after opening the pool. That’s the only time we might slam but I think we have only had to do that twice at opening when seeing a real mild cloudiness. Usually we take the cover off and it’s crystal clear. As for needing to maintain a higher level of chlorine we found it uses less not more. Once we are at the high end of the recommended target FC it doesn’t take much to maintain it there. Only to get it there. As a matter of fact when our target was lower we actually used more chlorine and more often.

Things have gone so well for so long for us (why I ❤️ it here) we just don’t want to change anything about our strategy, and a higher CYA was part of it. That’s why I will always recommend at least 50 CYA. It made things much easier for us.
 
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You are a seasoned veteran. We need to err on the side of caution for folks learning. If they falter, it's a costly mistake. :)
Yes but I learned this in our first two years here, when I was just learning too. It served me well. That’s why our 13 year record was achieved.

How can a CYA of 50 be a costly mistake?
 
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And here we are today. With the help of this site and all of you, I have such a better understanding of how all of these chemicals work together and the ranges they should be in

I'm glad it all worked out. Next time you'll be the one on the helping side ;)
 
How can a CYA of 50 be a costly mistake?
Having to SLAM at a higher FC if things go south. It makes a big difference.

My favorite part of SLAMs is that it takes the OP from no to pro in 2 weeks or less. But many take much longer to get there so the advice is always on the cautious side.
 
Maybe one last point on chemistry. It takes usually some time to get your head around the higher FC levels we recommend here, so a little background on that.

....snipped for brevity...

I hope I didn't dive too deep here, but I wanted to give you some reassurance that we are not just making these things up. We are just applying scientific learnings to pool care.
Awesome explanation of how things work 'under the covers'. Thanks !!
 
My FC went from 6 to 3.5 overnight. We had a lot of rain during the night and I have a brand new solar cover on it. My CYA is only at 30. Is it normal to drop that much? My CC is .5 and water is clear. I work from home today, so I’m going to add stabilizer during my lunch break. But I only have enough left to maybe boost it to 40. I do have 3” pucks - bioguard complete 3” silktabs. Should I put some in the chlorinator just to help boost my CYA? I feel like I’m just burning thru chlorine.
 
If you tested in the dark Nighttime and Morning, then that's potentially a problem. Let things mix and then check again - seems like a big drop. If you're catching some stratified water layer with the new rain-water on the top, that could be part of it.

I try to do my tests at roughly the same time every day (usually around 9-10am with my second coffee), and sample from roughly the same place every day (by the deep-end steps, about 2ft down in the water - I use a capped pipe with a hole I can put my thumb over, so I can pick up a sample like a straw and dump it in a container to use for testing)- that way the results are consistent day-to-day, and I've eliminated some variables like time of day, UV exposure and so on.
 
If you tested in the dark Nighttime and Morning, then that's potentially a problem. Let things mix and then check again - seems like a big drop. If you're catching some stratified water layer with the new rain-water on the top, that could be part of it.

I try to do my tests at roughly the same time every day (usually around 9-10am with my second coffee), and sample from roughly the same place every day (by the deep-end steps, about 2ft down in the water - I use a capped pipe with a hole I can put my thumb over, so I can pick up a sample like a straw and dump it in a container to use for testing)- that way the results are consistent day-to-day, and I've eliminated some variables like time of day, UV exposure and so on.
I tested it last night at 7pm, so it wasn’t dark yet. When I take my water sample, I take it from the same place each time and I turn the bottle upside down while putting it in the water and take the water from about elbow deep. Ugh, I do not wish to do the slam again LOL. I’m hoping it’s just because my CYA is low.
 
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